Faithist Memes, Religious Privilege, Victimization, and Bad Arguments
Lately, I have had a couple in-depth conversations with friends of mine who are believers about belief in God. To their credit, the debates were mature, without so much of the self-victimization and underhanded straw men that believers often use. But, some were still evident, so I thought I’d write about some of the faithist memes and myths that have been quite prevalent in society lately and my thoughts on them. These are all “points” that are used to defend and protect religious beliefs. (For the record, YES, these are generalizations, and if you don’t subscribe to the meme, then I’m not talking about you, and if you do, then YES, I am!)
“It’s true because I believe it.” – The “Truth” Meme.
This might sound like a simple everyday understanding, but it’s definitely a faithist meme. It’s a suspension of reality. It’s saying, “It doesn’t matter what else is true, this will always be true because I choose to call it truth.” Yeah, I said choose. Belief is a choice. You choose what you believe, and by the power of this meme, you get to choose your truth. You see it used as a defense over every social issue. Fundamentalists say they know what traditional marriage is (even though marriage has changed many times over its history), they know when life begins (even though there is no actual way of objectively determining such a thing), etc. But they don’t know, there is no truth or fact, they just believe.
What’s really scary about the power of this meme is that it can be used to justify ANYTHING that happens as God’s will. Hemant wrote this week about the study that concluded intercessory prayer (prayer for others) has no positive effect (and may have even had some negative effect). Christianity Today twisted this result by claiming:
God seems to have granted favor without regard to either the quantity or even the quality of the prayers…True to his character, God appears inclined to heal and bless as many as possible.
In other words, even though prayer didn’t work, they twisted it to support their own belief.
This meme even appears in the new film Angels & Demons. Plotwise, there is nothing supernatural that takes place—it can all be explained by science (the film’s version) and human behavior. Still, at the very end, the new Carmalengo says “God sent you to save us.”
Dawkins explains the idea of the cliff and the need to explain that which seems to be unexplainable (taking a leap of faith). This meme encourages taking those leaps just to justify one’s beliefs, when in fact, there is absolutely nothing miraculous or unexplainable about the events. The fact that prayer doesn’t work is not further evidence of God, unless of course you believe it is. And of course we respect those beliefs because they’re your beliefs. In fact, let’s do that one next.
“These are my beliefs, so you need to respect them.” The “Respect” Meme.
No, I don’t. I respect your right to have them, but just because you say they’re your beliefs does not mean I am going to kowtow to them. This is, of course, what Dawkins referred to as “undeserved respect.” I call it religious privilege. The true nature of this meme is the immunity that beliefs have from debate. Beliefs don’t stand up to debate, because they aren’t substantiated. If you start to unpack this meme, you unpack the “Truth” meme simultaneously. Why are they your beliefs? Why do you choose to hold those beliefs? What are your REASONS to hold those beliefs?
This leads into what I call Biblical Circular Reasoning. (Of course, any religion and religious text can be substituted.) It looks like this:
1. “I believe in God.”
2. “I believe the Bible is the word of God.”
3. “I believe Christianity is the teaching of God.”
1. + 2. “I believe in God because the Bible says I should.”
2. + 1. “I believe in the Bible because I believe in God.”
1. + 3. “I believe in God because I’m a Christian.”
3. + 1. “I’m Christian because that is the only way I can know God.”
2. + 3. “I believe in the Bible because I’m a Christian.”
3. + 2. “I’m a Christian because the Bible tells me I should be.”
It’s perfectly impenetrable to the believer and yet totally without reason. It’s a pretty easy way to see that there really is not an intellectual foundation to belief in God. That should be open for debate. If people are going to use their beliefs to effect social change or make political decisions that put people’s lives in danger, then belief is NOT good enough. If belief were not so privileged in society, so many issues could have easily be avoided.
I do not need to respect what a person believes. And many people who claim as such don’t follow it as such, because there are plenty of beliefs different from their own they don’t pay any heed to. People just want their own beliefs to be respected so that they don’t have to actually think about them and they can just feel good about themselves. This leads us to the next meme, which is quite popular in the media these days!
“If my beliefs are not being respected, I’m the victim.” – The “Victim” Meme.
This is just a blatant abuse of privilege. It’s crying foul and resisting any sort of intellectual debate. It’s pitiful and pathetic.
Our good friends over at the National Organization for Marriage are infamous for this. Maggie Gallagher is on some talk show every week spewing this garbage. Carrie Prejean, that joke of a “role model,” is the latest public face of this privileged position:
I am not perfect, and I will never claim to be. But these attacks on me and others who speak in defense of traditional marriage are intolerant and offensive. While we may not agree on every issue, we should show respect for others’ opinions and not try to silence them through vicious and mean-spirited attacks.
That’s right. According to the followers of this meme, by challenging their points, it’s offending their beliefs. Thus, they’re the victims. So, obviously, they should just have their way and that way no one will be offended! That’s convenient.
Actually, when you say things like, “In my country, and in my family… I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman,” it doesn’t matter how many times you say “No offense,” you’re QUITE offensive. You are offending countless people and countless families! You are furthering the bigotry that the LGBT community experiences by validating the idea that they are less than. If you think for one second I’m going to respect that belief, you are sadly mistaken. And furthermore, if you can’t defend your belief, that doesn’t make you the victim, it just makes you dumb. Stand up for your point of view, articulate it, debate it, substantiate it. If you can’t do that without falling back on “Truth” and “Respect” memes, then you basically have no argument at all.
Christians, in this country, are not victims. They have so much more power and privilege than they know what to do with. They do not all abuse it like in the examples I’ve provided, but they all have it, and I think they all have a responsibility to work out that privilege. If you choose to subscribe to a set of beliefs, fine. I will always support free will and free thought. If you expect me to respect what you believe, well, sorry, but I don’t think so. You have to earn that respect.
“Oh yeah, well you only care about your own point of view!”
“Atheists are ego-worshippers/self-centered/selfish/etc.“ The “Selfish Atheist” Meme
In one of the conversations I had recently, I found it to be the complete opposite. In fact, I would argue that atheists (and more specifically, skeptics) are the least selfish people when it comes to worldviews.
I don’t believe anything. I don’t have any proof of anything supernatural. I have no reason to support any one belief. I am equally open and critical of all ideas. My focus is on human life. What do I understand about the human experience? What can I do to make the most of our existence on this planet? How can I serve all of humanity?
Isn’t that so much more open and giving than subscribing to a religious belief? How much time is wasted by trying to search for one’s faith, when the notion of faith is self-fabricated to begin with? I search for meaning in my life too, but I’m not going to be granted it by some supernatural force. I’m going to learn to better understand myself so that I can better serve others. And I am never going to be so boxed into a belief that I am not capable of learning and growing from it.
Isn’t it the people that believe with such conviction that are the egotistical ones? The ones that “know the truth”? The ones that cannot be swayed and can never consider other ideas or beliefs? Are they not the ones who are quite dramatically selfish? Honestly, if you think about the previous three memes, it’s the believer who is most self-centered: “My belief is the truth, my belief deserves respect, and if it doesn’t get it, I’m the victim.”
I don’t pretend to know anything. I have no beliefs that demand respect. I kind of sometimes feel like the victim, but only because I’m subjected to people’s beliefs who are not on the same intellectual footing as mine. They sure like to think so though.
“We can’t prove there is a God. You can’t prove there isn’t. So neither of us is right or wrong!” – The “Stalemate” Meme.
Actually, that’s not how debate or science work. In fact, if you think about it, I can never be wrong. I’m positing nothing. I’m not trying to prove there is not a God. I’m just saying, “We don’t know and we can’t know and it’s foolish to assume otherwise.” That’s pretty safe footing. That’s how science works. We don’t draw conclusions until we have tested, retested, and all come to agreement on the conclusions from the evidence.
Believers posit a lot of ideas, with no evidence. Many will admit that they can’t prove God, but they believe and that’s enough for them (the “Truth” meme). I can easily prove we don’t know, because, well, we don’t. And the funny thing is, I hear people use this argument to defend only the God they believe in, as if it is substantiated and none of the others are. I always like the idea of “We are all atheists, but some make exceptions.” I often find myself asking, “Why do you believe in that God and not some other god or gods?” And of course, they can only answer with more memes: the “Respect” meme and this one:
“Well, since we can never know, it’s better to just believe, just in case.” – The “Just Because” Meme
Ah, Pascal’s Wager. I really could debate this, but the Wikipedia article explains it pretty well, with a Dawkins quote and all.
I’ll just call this meme what it is: desperation. When faced with the choice of cognitive dissonance and blissful ignorance, this is the meme that allows blissful ignorance to continue. It’s committing oneself to never see outside of the Matrix, and thus humoring the idea that there could be no such thing as the Matrix (if you’ll humor my metaphor).
While this meme seems harmless enough, I still worry about the effect it has on humanity’s intellectual development. Skepticism leaves room for all possibilities and skeptics can explore them all. Belief limits understanding to only one possibility and commits to only searching for meaning in that one. We really cannot even humor this paltry meme, because it still supports religious privilege and limitations to our exploration and scope of knowledge.
Conclusion
So, there are the faithist memes as I have been able to identify them. I’m sure there are more, but these seem to be the most prevalent ones. Just a quick review:
“Truth” – It’s true because I believe it.
“Respect” – These are my beliefs, so you need to respect them.
“Victim” – If my beliefs are not being respected, I’m the victim.
“Selfish Atheist” – Atheists are ego-worshippers/self-centered/selfish/etc.
“Stalemate” – We can’t prove there is a God. You can’t prove there isn’t. So neither of us is right or wrong!
“Just Because” – Well, since we can never know, it’s better to just believe, just in case.
Now, a special note to my readers. You may read this blog entry and find it offensive. You may feel generalized (though you shouldn’t), you may feel disrespected, and you may have other emotional responses. Great. Let’s hear them. We’ll either have some engaging dialogue or you’ll simply prove my points (or both). I would love some engaging dialogue though, so please comment! And let me know if you have other ideas!
A podcast w/ Peterson Toscano!
There are 0 Comments to "Faithist Memes, Religious Privilege, Victimization, and Bad Arguments"
Haha I feel like we’ve covered so many topics, I forgot why I entered into this debate. Let me make a few rebuttals and then I’ll reiterate why even bothered to step in. lol
“If you “came back” to Christianity, then you never really escaped the conditioning you had. You never had the experience of growing up Muslim or Buddhist or Atheist, so going “back” to Christianity was just following a path of least resistance. You never actually escaped the Matrix you were inserted into by your upbringing.”
Honestly? So what if you were brought up Atheist? Isn’t that just following the “path of least resistance” then? You don’t share the experiences of those in the Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or (add religion here) faiths. So according to your logic, growing up Atheist is just as silly as growing up in a Christian family. Somehow I feel I need to make this point clear: Upbringing is not a real determinant in faith!! I’ve seen Christians that have Atheist parents and Atheists that have Christian parents. What I’m talking about is real faith!! Not the kind of faith that says “The Bible says it’s wrong, so it’s wrong! But the kind that says, “Why does the Bible say its wrong? Let me search out the matter for myself!” It’s a faith you live out each day! Not just on Sundays! I agree with you on one thing: there are many people who grow up in Christian families that have in effect been indoctrinated. They believe what they believe because somebody told them to believe it. I don’t agree with that. And usually by the time they get to college, they stop being Christians anyway. Why? Because what they had wasn’t really theirs to begin with.
“Just because a whole lot of people have convinced each other they believe the same thing does not mean their “dream” is any less delusional. It just means they’re gullible, naïve, and conforming.”
Gullible, naive, and conforming? That’s just your opinion. I made a personal choice to become a Christian. Nobody convinced me. Nobody “indoctrinated” me. Sometimes when I get into discussions with other Christians, THEY irritate me because they’re not willing to look at other possibilities or keep their minds open on things. My parents irritate me all the time. lol Even among Christians, everybody has different perceptions of God based on their life experiences. The thing that unites us is that we all have had a common experience but if you were to question each one of us, you would find that the circumstances leading to the experience varies from person to person. We didn’t have to convince each other. The supplemental experiences of everyone else only build on what is already there. The dream analogy was a poor one. Sorry for that, I kind of wrote it last minute without too much thought.
“You continue to rely on your own experiences while we use discernible facts to consider all possibilities rationally.”
Experiences in and of themselves are not the answer! You have to look beyond the experience at what causes them! You have to ask, “Why am I experiencing this?” That’s science! I’m not looking at my experience and claiming that is the truth! I’m looking at the cause of my experiences. The only thing that could have caused my experience is a supernatural being because nothing physical, mental, or emotional could have caused what I experienced! I had an experience–the one of conversion if you will. The experience consisted of awareness of being loved and accepted. Do you know when somebody loves and accepts you? You know it when they do. That’s the feeling I felt. It certainly wasn’t coming from me. I wasn’t loving and accepting myself. I have “loved and accepted” myself on occasion out of my own egocentricity but it was nothing like that. lol So I knew with a certainty that it was coming from something outside of me. No one else was in the room. Not my family, not my friends. If they were there I could see how maybe this feeling can emanate from them. But they weren’t. You may say, well maybe I was thinking about them and their love for me. At that time no I wasn’t. I was thinking about my own selfish nature and how self-destructive I was. So where did that feeling come from. The only “rational” explanation would be that it came from a mental disorder I didn’t possess or from something outside of myself–God. Why God and not something else? It was the nature of what I experienced and THAT I cannot describe to you. You may doubt, you may scoff, but to me my faith is something rational and real and constantly evolving. Honestly, if I was gullible, naive, and conforming, would there really need to be a reason to have this dialogue? I could just wrap myself in a Christian bubble and drown out all other voices, which is what some Christians do…and I disagree with that. To blanket all Christians under the same terms is ignorance. That’s just as stupid as me saying all Atheists have no morals or values because everything is meaningless. I get into these discussions because you help point out things in my faith that I haven’t really or fully questioned; however, nothing you’ve presented is enough to convince ME that the Atheist lifestyle is better than the Christian one, as I’m sure nothing I’ve said has had any effect on you. The point of discussion isn’t necessarily always to walk out with a clear verdict, sometimes it’s to help better understand both positions. That’s what I’m trying to do. I’m not trying to convince you of my faith or of Christianity for that matter but to help clear misconceptions about what our FAITH means TO US not TO YOU.
Wow, come to think of it. I’ve digressed a lot haha Oh well, my original reason for entering this argument was that a contention was made that faith is a handicap in people’s lives. haha I of course disagree. You can be a successful and happy Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. There are truly wretched people out there that if not for faith, they would’ve still been wretched. Faith does have the power to change people and make them better but like I’ve said before, it needs to be your own faith, not something someone’s spoon-fed you. My favorite example of positive, life-altering faith is this story (my retelling):
A tribesman was sitting on a beach boiling a pot on a campfire in preparation for lunch. While he waited, he pulled out a Bible and started reading. While he was reading, an Atheist came up to him and scolded him. “Don’t you know what you’re reading is false? That it is just a collection of fables and twisted accounts? How could you believe in such a thing?!” The tribesman looked at him and replied, “If it wasn’t for this book, you’d be in that pot.”
I don’t know if this was based on real events but it does make a good example. Many tribal people stopped being cannibals because of Christianity. Most examples are not that dramatic but faith does change people’s lives. There’s no denying that. The reason why there is so much problems with faith is because people sometimes use it for political or ulterior motives (Ex:George Bush–”God told me to invade Iraq”) or to justify an evil (Southerners and Slavery). Then some of them try to convince ignorant and gullible people to believe and not question and twist the meaning of scriptures or other holy writings. (David Koresh, Islamic and Christian fundamentalists) Dangerous. Very dangerous. Most cults start this way.
So there I’ve said what I wanted to say and a little more than I needed to say. lol Thank you Zack for the spirited discussion. I only have two real questions for you: 1) Are you satisfied with the way your life is turning out? 2) Are you willing to die for what you believe? And I’m not talking about somebody killing you just because you’re Atheist, I’m talking about somebody giving you the option to recant and you still choosing to die anyway. Because if there’s nothing worth dying for, there really is nothing worth living for either. If you can answer with a resounding “yes” to both questions then I’m happy for you. You’ve found something worth dying for that also gives you satisfaction in life. I can respect that. I may not agree with you but I can respect that.
And Will?
When I was younger, I went through a phase where I was extremely depressed with my worldview and desperately hoped to find religion. I tried as hard as I could to pray and feel that connection, to have that spiritual experience. Obviously, it didn’t work. Eventually I grew out of the rather pessimistic way I was looking at atheism and embraced a much more positive worldview… but anyway. My point is, don’t think we just weren’t open enough, or just didn’t try hard enough.
I’m sorry if you assumed I was talking to everybody. Thank you for sharing this with me. I enjoy hearing people’s stories because it helps me understand them better. My statement was meant more for Zack than for everyone else. Seeing as how you’ve tried and it didn’t work, I applaud you for at least giving it some thought. The same questions I asked Zack are the same ones I would like to ask you. Perhaps you had a moment or moments in time when something terrible happened and you wondered, “If a God existed how can this be possible?” Perhaps someone close to you betrayed you in some way, I don’t know. But I would truly love to hear your life story. Not to add a Christian spin on it, not to further try to convert you, but to try to understand you, and in trying to do so, becoming a more aware and understanding person. My email is navya_nandamudi@baylor.edu. Why a Christian school? Hey! I have free tuition! That’s hard to turn down! lol
You have to be conditioned to believe, not to not believe. You have to be conditioned to humor the idea that the Bible is somehow legitimate and worth investigating. You wouldn’t have made any “choice” to become Christian if you weren’t influenced by and surrounded by Christianity. What if you had lived in an isolated part of the world and never even heard of it? (Does that mean you’d automatically rot in Hell since evangelists and missionaries didn’t get to you?)
“It must have been something outside of myself,” is HARDLY rational by any stretch of the imagination. You completely left out the possibility that your brain convinced itself to feel loved despite the fact there was nothing real loving it. That’s actually pretty easy to conceive. I can convince my brain it’s having sex and produce a pretty physical reaction, but that doesn’t mean I was screwing a ghost.
I’m not contending that good things don’t happen in the name of religion, but you don’t need religion to do any of those things. Is there anything in Christianity that actually condemns cannibalism (aside from of course condemning murder)? Island peoples often WORSHIP the settlers who come because of their technological advances and wealth of supplies. People are naturally attracted to better ideas and sometimes they’ll take new bad ideas along with new good ones. It’s hardly a good defense of religion.
I think you’re “willing to die” is a horrible example. I would say that I am very happy with how my life is turning out, but so much so that I would want to preserve it. I have no egotistical deity to worry about offending, so if my life was on the line, I probably would consider lying. Martyrdom is one of the worst evils religion advocates. No physical threat could make me change my mind or make me actually think differently, but if you’re judging me for not dying on principle, that’s pretty barbaric (not unlike all the uncivilized practices throughout the Bible). My worldview is that life is all we have, and I think there are only things worth living for. Dying for something is shallow, and as a point of view it’s hardly admirable.
Navya, I definitely have to say that I respect you for engaging in this heavy dialogue. Talking about one’s beliefs is one of the hardest things for people to do, and I have encountered many unwilling to engage whatsoever. Thank you for that.
Still, everything you have said suggests to me that you succumbed to a false hope in which to feel support in your life. It may not seem false to you, but only because you’ve convinced yourself it’s real. I think it’s so much more freeing to not waste your time worshiping and praying to a God and instead focusing on your own life and your ability to make a difference in the world for the direct sake of helping people, and not just because God said so.
“Dying for something is shallow, and as a point of view it’s hardly admirable.”
You do realize that America was built on the fact that people were willing to die for ideas such as liberty and independence? That men and women fight for the sake of others and their countries? People DIE to protect loved ones…but I guess to you that’s shallow. We wouldn’t be living in the world as it is today without the sacrifices of many lives for ideas and concepts such as liberty and justice; people are willing to die for what they truly believe in. You and I are enjoying our freedom to have a religious debate because people sacrificed their lives for free speech.You should read books Goerge Orwell–1984 or Ayn Rand–Anthem, or watch movies like V for Vendetta and Equilibrium. I think it’ll help change that ignorant opinion.
“My worldview is that life is all we have, and I think there are only things worth living for.”
I think you quite misunderstood me and are only looking at one side of the coin. You think there are things worth living for? Ok Good! What if those things were taken away? Would you DIE for those things? Because according to logic if something is worth living for and is taken away, and you are not willing to die to keep it, then it really isn’t something worth living for. lol
I have no egotistical deity to worry about offending, so if my life was on the line, I probably would consider lying.
I wouldn’t die because I was afraid of offending God lol I have done things on occasion that were quite offensive to God! I would die because I believed that what I was doing or what I believed was right! The fact that you, in an extreme situation, aren’t willing to sacrifice your life for what you believe/know to be right tells me a lot about your character (don’t confuse this for what suicide bombers do. Their life is in no immediate danger. They gladly inflict harm to send a message…not what I’m talking about).
“I think it’s so much more freeing to not waste your time worshiping and praying to a God and instead focusing on your own life and your ability to make a difference in the world for the direct sake of helping people, and not just because God said so.”
How do you know it’s more freeing? Have you actually prayed and worshiped God before and I mean as a born-again Christian? Didn’t think so. :) Once again, that’s your opinion. lol I find my faith freeing and unconstrained. It’s a matter of perspective. ;) And I don’t help people because God “told me to.” I genuinely do care for people and want to help as many people as I can. God helps me love and care for people I wouldn’t normally love and care for, like my enemies and those who have hurt me deeply in some way. “Do good to those who hate you.”–yeah, I try to live by that verse. It can be hard though. :D
From everything you’ve said up till now, I can infer that you are a man that has little or no principles and what little you do have don’t hold any water against the tests of life. And what you might feel strongly and passionately about are meaningless in light of what you have said. lol If that is what being an Atheist is all about, thank you but I think I’ll keep my faith. :)
Wow, I don’t think you understand me at all.
My point was that I wouldn’t die just because of something I believed. I have heard people, including those who comment on this blog, use Jesus’s disciples as proof of faith. They were willing to die for what they believe, so the faith must be true. What you asked was if I would be willing to die for my atheist viewpoint. If someone were holding a gun to my head, would I be willing to die before I said “I believe.”
You have warped my comments to represent me in an inaccurate way I don’t appreciate. I would like to think I would be willing to die to protect people and protect freedom, though I am a pacifist and would not seek violence as a means to that “protection.” I do not respect martyrdom and would only put my life on the line as a last resort, if the life I knew were no longer possible. I am not the ignorant, valueless heathen you have painted me as.
I do not think your “logic” is valid. Something worth living for is not necessarily something worth dying for; that could be construed as quite petty. Life changes and society changes, and things will always be different. Encouraging people to be willing to die for things is what incites violence and continues your assault on the human capacity for reason. Sometimes you have to grow up and say, “These are the way things are now.” That doesn’t mean you stop advocating for change and a better life, but you don’t throw your life away just out of principle either. Just because our history has suggested we should find triumph in war doesn’t make it any more respectable than suicide bombing. The line is finer than you think.
That’s what I meant by being more free without God. I have believed. I have prayed. I couldn’t again, because I now understand how absurd a concept such as God is. Much like 18-year-olds have to grow up and start living without their parents over their shoulders, so too do we all need to realize we can live without God. You shouldn’t (and frankly, don’t) need God to help you love and care for people. You can motivate yourself to do that.
That’s what I do. That’s what being an atheist is about to me. It’s about stepping up. How can I be the best person I can be and contribute the most to the lives of others? It’s about recognizing the full potential that I have as an individual without needing guidance or support from some inner projection of a supernatural protector.
I would appreciate you heeding me at my word, and not falling into another meme trap by calling me unprincipled and dispassionate. I am anything but.
You’re absolutely right. I guess I did misunderstand you but it was only because of the way you answered. But I guess I wasn’t being very clear with my questions, so I’m sorry. Let me clarify. When I meant willing to die, I meant willing to risk your life. I too understand that if there was the option of not shedding blood or if there is an easier way of doing things without compromising your values then it should be taken.
I choose to look at the lives of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. as proof of this fact. Both were willing to risk their physical well-being and lives to fight for what they believed to be right, using non-violence. Look at the examples of the students at Tiananmen Square. They willingly risked their lives for what they believed. I guess what I should have asked you then was could you, in the face of oppression and possible death, remain true to your values and ideals? Because a man who is not afraid of death and willing to stand for what he believes is more respected than a man who seeks the easy way out. Just watch any good action movie. :) THAT is why Christian martyrs were so effective. Do you realize that Christianity initially flourished under persecution? And even today in the areas of the world where Christians are being persecuted, it is there that faith is the strongest? People dying for something they believe is true doesn’t make it true. I concur with you; however, it does make an impact and starts making people question why they believed it was true. The fact that killing Christians didn’t deter converts like antagonists wanted at least raised the question of why.
Enough about that.
My logic was valid. It could only be construed as petty if what you were living for was “petty,” ex: living for love, money, material things, etc. I should have been more clear, sorry.
Much like 18-year-olds have to grow up and start living without their parents over their shoulders, so too do we all need to realize we can live without God.
I already understand this. I think everyone that has had a born-again experience understands this. Have you read the story of the prodigal son? I know for a fact that I can live without God and have done so on occasion. The truth is, I am happiest when I’m doing what God wants me to do. You’re right, I don’t need God’s help to love people, but he makes it a lot easier.
“It’s about recognizing the full potential that I have as an individual without needing guidance or support from some inner projection of a supernatural protector.”
Ok, good for you! If that’s what makes you happy! I’d rather live my life with my “inner projection” lol and we can both go on with our lives thinking each other unreasonable. :)
“I would appreciate you heeding me at my word, and not falling into another meme trap by calling me unprincipled and dispassionate. I am anything but.”
Well that’s good to know. I didn’t necessarily call you those things. I was implying that your principles and passions were unfounded. But you’ve clarified so there is no comment from me. ;) However, I think you’ve fallen several times in another “meme” trap by assuming that all Christians are ignorant, naive, and indoctrinated. :)
Overall, apart from the faith in God thing, what really is the difference between the ideal Atheist lifestyle and the ideal Christian one? If the ideal Atheist lifestyle is to “be the best person I can be and contribute the most to the lives of others” than the only difference would be that the Christian would ask, “How do I glorify God in the process?” Honestly, what we’re debating here is worldviews not lifestyles, which brings me back to my original point: Faith is not a handicap to a person’s life.
If you really want me to understand the Atheist viewpoint, show me examples of Atheism principles helping people break addictions, tell me how Atheism helps people with terminal illness find joy in the midst of their suffering. Explain to me how the Atheist rationale allows for people to care for those who have irreparably wronged them. I love stories and I think I would get a better understanding of your worldview and lifestyle if you were to do this. And I have a question. If I was an Atheist, why should I not live at the expense of others? I am selfish by nature, so it wouldn’t be very hard for me. If my life here on earth was all that there was and there would be no after death consequences, if I could get away with it, why shouldn’t I live however I pleased even if it harmed others?
Other than that, I’ve noticed something, so I before I end I’ll ask: Why do you call yourself an Atheist? You sound more like an Agnostic.
The difference is truth. Truth is not always rosier, it is not always comforting, it is not always easier, but at least it’s honest, objective, and measurable. When you introduce a concept like God and related beliefs, it opens the door to the subjective, and things done “in the name of God” are entertained as justifiable. I agree it is the only difference between an atheist and Christian, but it is a significant, disconcerting difference. It is that difference that inhibits how humanity understands and appreciates each other, and that is why I’m chipping away at how protected beliefs are by society (see my most recent post http://is.gd/1b98U).
Breaking addictions, enduring suffering, forgiving… these are all within the human potential, and God does not need to be a reason to support them. The assumption you made, “I am selfish by nature,” is not an accurate depiction of humanity. The truth is quite the opposite. Yes, we can be selfish, but ultimately, we evolved the way we did because of our ability to support one another. We are a social species. The golden rule is an evolved instinct. Even without God, our lives are richer when we are all living for others (in “selfish” terms, if I live for everybody else, everybody else will live for me). Granted, it needs to be nurtured, but it’s there. Morals are not derived from beliefs. Beliefs were designed around morals. The proof is easy to see too… the Bible hasn’t change in centuries, but morals have. Our understandings of abolition, suffrage, and civil rights, as examples, didn’t come from the liturgy; in most cases they blossomed in spite of it.
It might be as simple to you as, “I’ll believe, you won’t, and we’ll respect each other’s choice.” But Navya, I can’t respect your choice, because it is respecting that choice that holds back my rights. Every time I argue with someone who is anti-LGBT, I’m convincing them to choose reason over belief. I can’t be fighting baseless “truths” with one hand while I’m respecting them with the other. It’s the system that protects them that is at the root of the problem, so I’m sorry, but “I am happiest when I’m doing what God wants me to do,” isn’t good enough for me. Ignorance might be bliss for you, but your subscription to beliefs continues to hold me down. I am raising the intellectual bar for everybody.
An Agnostic think there is just as good a chance there is a God as there isn’t: 50/50. Atheists doubt. In fact, I think it is highly unlikely that there is a God. “People say so,” is no proof at all. See my Terminology page and this post for more detail about these identities: http://is.gd/1bb0r
“I agree it is the only difference between an atheist and Christian, but it is a significant, disconcerting difference. It is that difference that inhibits how humanity understands and appreciates each other, and that is why I’m chipping away at how protected beliefs are by society”
It would only be disconcerting if people were twisting things to suit ulterior motives and others couldn’t or wouldn’t think for themselves, but I’m not talking about society as a whole. I’m talking about the individual. I agree that no one religion or set of beliefs should rule an entire society. What I’m talking about is the single cell–the individual. How an individual lives his/her life.
My “I’m happiest…” statement wasn’t good enough for you? I don’t need it to be. It’s good enough for me. Because I’m living my life not you. lol I don’t need you to respect my beliefs.I don’t care whether you do or not. I’m entitled to my way of thinking and you to yours. That’s what I meant. Just like in your “Respect Meme.”
I don’t like how you’re putting reason vs. beliefs. That’s really silly because usually reason leads to belief. I have reasons to believe in God just as you have reasons to “highly doubt there is”–which is a belief/opinion. I call it a belief because you are basically saying you believe in the strong possibility of there not being a God, and you of course have reasons to back that up. Until someone can PROVE to me there is no God, there is no reason for me to give up my beliefs because they are REASONABLE to ME. Once again, I’m not asking you to accept my point of view.
“Ignorance might be bliss for you, but your subscription to beliefs continues to hold me down. I am raising the intellectual bar for everybody.”
Ignorance is never bliss and it’s quite pathetic to assert that I’m ignorant just because I think differently than you. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, learning, or information. So if I’m ignorant then please enlighten me. Where is the “knowledge or information a.k.a evidence” that God doesn’t exist? That he is solely contrived from my own being? If you could prove to me with hard facts than I will concede that I am indeed ignorant of there being no God. Seeing as how you are only highly doubtful and not knowledgeable, I don’t see this happening. Lastly, my subscription to beliefs continues to hold you down? That’s laughable. I am in no way holding you down. This is America! Not a theocracy! You can believe and fight for whatever you want to! My personal beliefs are in no way keeping you from exercising your right to do so. You’re falling into your own “Victim” Meme. I don’t support LGBTs but I still do care for them as individuals. The whole point of Christianity is to love people DESPITE their political beliefs or ideologies OR sexual orientation. Besides I don’t need the Bible to argue against things like gay marriage. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1082190/posts. This is just one of several arguments against gay marriage without introducing religion. I don’t agree with some of it but I do agree with the parts of incest and polygamy and what about NAMBLA and NAWGLA? They should be given rights too! So there are nonreligious reasons for me to not support things like gay marriage.
Well, I was enjoying our respectful dialogue, but I guess that’s over. As the adopted son of a mother who could not have a child of her own (and was condemned by her church for even trying) and a future adopter myself, I resent the fact that you would suggest an argument that same-sex relationships aren’t worth recognizing simply because they’ll cost the state the same money as any other family. That’s so incredibly low. Let’s not even get into your absurd mention of NAMBLA.
You make a claim without proof. I don’t. You believe. I don’t. The difference is in our approach to understanding. I use science and reason. You use mythology, subjective experience, and conformity. Reason doesn’t lead to belief, delusion does. I have reason to not believe in God, you have delusions that convince you to believe in God.
People do twist beliefs to their motives, or let their fear take control. I’m glad as an individual you don’t, but I see no effective way to distinguish between your beliefs and the people that do. The claim of God is yours, and the burden of proof is upon you. I can offer plenty of reasons why God cannot exist, but you will say, “You haven’t fully proven it, so I still believe.” That’s ignorance, and you’re entitled to it. Do not expect me to cater to it.
hahaha oh my! I guess the less words I use, the more I leave open to interpretation. You’re not enjoying this anymore? That’s a shame. So why did the church condemn your mother? The only real thing I did agree 100% is the part about incestuous and polygamous relationships. If love between two individuals is all that is necessary for marriage. Then why leave out incestuous relationships and why stop at just two people? Why can’t four people get married? Not including my religious perspective, that is the reason why I don’t support LGBTs. And I mentioned NAMBLA because they’re fighting for some rights too and also I was being facetious ;). But guess what? If gay marriage is legalized, that’s not going to make me start hating married gay people. I don’t want to see any heavy PDA but I feel the same way about hetero couples too. I think most Christians are too tangled up in politics and care too much for the wrong things. Christianity was built on the concept that God’s son died for our sins, so we should demonstrate his love for mankind by loving others and through us his light would shine. That’s what Christianity is about and what I think most Christians have forgotten.
You say I use mythology, subjective experience, and conformity? I’m 90% sure that the only thing that is correct is the subjective experience. lol Mythology? Jesus was a historical figure. There are references of him outside of the Bible, but what counts as a reason for belief is how the disciples/apostles lived after Jesus. Stories can be fabricated, myths can be made. Yes. I agree with you. But his disciples didn’t consider Jesus to be any less than the son of God and were willing to sacrifice their lives to spread the news. And look at the life of Paul! He went from persecuting them to becoming their strongest advocate! And conformity? Please be more specific as to what you mean.
You say that reason doesn’t lead to belief. I think you’re missing the whole point of inductive reasoning. Besides we use reason to predict things like future events and the strength of our belief is determined by how valid we believe our reason/reasons to be. You say again that you have reason to not believe in God, and I have delusions. Well I have reason to support my “delusions.” :)
Lastly, you’re right. In a debate of the existence of God the burden of proof is upon me and I could show you scientific evidence that supports why God can exist, but you might and probably will say, “You haven’t fully proven him, so I still don’t believe.” So what then? We’ve reached an impasse. But get this. I don’t HAVE to and CANT DEFINITIVELY PROVE God to you or to anybody else. Think of it as trying to fully describe how beautiful a sunset is to a man who was born blind. It’s impossible. In fact that’s where the whole faith part kicks in. You believe in it if you are willing to. If not, fine. Besides I didn’t get into this dialogue to prove the existence of God. I got into this discussion because you were making the claim that faith inhibits a person from truly living life to the fullest, and I had contention with this because in no way has my faith impaired my judgment on living a fruitful and fulfilling (in my opinion) life.
You think I’m ignorant, but I think you’re just being ridiculous. Like I’ve said before, ignorance is lack of knowledge, learning, or information. If arguing in an actual debate and was made to take your side, I could whip up a fully-fledged stance on why atheism could be correct, because the point of discussion isn’t necessarily to convince others you’re right. Sometimes it is to simply become more aware of what the other side is all about. I’m just trying to show you that not all Christians are ignorant, naive, or indoctrinated like you think and that faith isn’t a handicap in everyone’s lives. Overall, I guess I’m just trying to help make you less ignorant. ;)
1) Sexual orientation is about “what gender,” NOT “how many” and definitely NOT “what kind” (more often that is paraphilia).
2) By conformity, I refer to the fact that you never stepped away from the beliefs in which you were raised. You believe Jesus is your God, not Mouhammed, not Zeus, not Thor. What fits for you is what fits for your community to accept you.
3) I welcome any scientific argument you have for God. Even this “inductive reasoning” you boast requires precedent and probability. Considering my argument is “there is no precedent and it’s highly improbable,” you would have quite a case to make. Let’s hear it!
You could live a full and complete life, but your understanding of the human experience would still be constrained by your beliefs. That is my point. You have demonstrated the way you choose not to see outside of what you believe. You don’t seem to generally mind being challenged on these beliefs, which I suppose I respect, but your responses don’t seem to ever develop beyond “I still believe.” You certainly do not seem interested in considering your beliefs rationally or scientifically. But, that’s not my problem. It’s your choice to stay in the box that you know.
1) I guess I should make myself clear. I agree with some of the things that LGBTs are fighting for such as being able to serve in the military and public offices, etc. But I don’t support gay marriage, because the most common argument in defense of it is that two people who truly love each other should be allowed to be legally joined under full protection of the law despite sexual orientation. Am I wrong? Now let me pose another argument: Two people who truly love each other should be allowed to be legally joined under full protection of the law despite blood relation. And here’s another: A group of people who truly love each other should be allowed to be legally joined under full protection of the law despite their number. Gay marriage is only the beginning, so where do we draw the line? How far is too far? Should we only allow LGBTs to have their right to get married? If you try to claim that sexual orientation is genetic and gay people cannot help it. Then I’m going to reply that the gay gene is indefinite and with that type of logic I can make a case for the incest gene or the bestiality gene, etc. etc. Anyway, our culture (as a whole) has shown us that it is not ready for gay marriage, not yet at least. And what is my Christian response to everything? Love the sinner, hate the sin.
2)That is ridiculous. I am highly individualistic, but can conform with the group when it suits my purposes to do so. Even then, I could’ve been a closet atheist, Buddhist, (I don’t know how I could’ve been a closet Muslim lol) but you get my point. What really makes me laugh is that you assume that I surround myself with only Christian people, and even the Christian people I do have as friends have differing ideas from me on some issues! Let me give you some more background, I was born in India. My dad was a Hindu convert and my great-grandparents on my mother’s side were Hindu converts. They were ostracized by their village for converting to Christianity. Were they conforming? I don’t think so. Besides, I’ve told you before that the two people who could have driven me away from Christianity were my parents, especially my mom. It was because I (me, myself, and I) decided to search the matter out for my own and had my purely subjective and real (to me) experience that I am a Christian–not because I was conforming. It’s kind of funny that you would think I was, seeing as how you’ve never met me. Haha I’m an ENTP type.
3)I’m not going to get into great detail with this one. I have lots of reasons for believing in God and some of them are scientific BUT I would like to emphasize that none of the evidence proves God, just merely the possibility for the existence of an intelligent, supernatural being. Basically I will do a Creation vs. Evolution thingamajig. I’ll give three main ones and follow-up:
A) The Cambrian Explosion–Evolutionary theory states that less complex beings evolved into higher, more organized ones over a gradual period of time; however, the Cambrian Era proves that this is false because multiple, highly developed and distinct species appeared at the same time. The fossil record attests to this.
B) Dearth of Transitional Fossils–I believe in Microevolution but for Evolutionary Theory to be correct, Macroevolution must also be possible. If Macroevolution was possible, then we should be able to harness thousands, nay MILLIONS of fossilized creatures in some sort of transitional state. But the “transitional fossils” paleontologists have uncovered are very few and far between and most of them have turned out to be nothing more than hoaxes. And most fossils uncovered were already fully distinctive.
C) Abiogenises, Not Really–Studies have come out about how given the right conditions such as temperature, environment, etc. Proteins and amino acids can be formed. The so called primordial soup effect; however, while proteins and amino acids are essential for all living things, they are in and of themselves not living things. No one has been able produce a cell or even a single RNA strand from an experiment. And even if they were to do so, it would prove only one thing: Intelligent beings are able to produce life by manipulating circumstances and factors. Sounds kind of god-like to me. Biogenesis is a well-established fact, while Abiogenesis is merely speculative. I once read online from a man defending Abiogenesis that given enough time and chance, it can be possible. He wrote in contrast to what some Christians were saying. The Christians were arguing that the chance of life spontaneously happening was 10 raised to some number that made it pretty close to never. lol The man argued using an analogy of flipping a coin heads four times in a row. The chances of getting heads four times in a row is 1/16, but you can get it in the first try. It is merely the amount of possibility. If you increase the number of people and pennies, the chances of getting heads four times in a row increases. He used this to show how multiple proteins could then spontaneously arrange themselves into genetic sequences and then into life with a greater possibility given a significant amount of time and billions upon billions of proteins arranging themselves through trial and error. It made sense. Logically, it is sound. It is even reasonable. I was inclined to agree with him except for one small thing: Time and chance don’t cause anything to happen. Everything has a cause. Some people say, well environment change helped cause evolution, which it does in some cases, but only because living things are already built with the ability to adapt. How did the early “living” things adapt to environment changes when that part didn’t evolve yet? How did viruses replicate?
There are other arguments I could make: the tilt of the Earth’s axis, the distance from the Sun, etc. basically, things that the destructive force of nature can’t do on their own.
Lastly, I would like to say that everyone has a box. You have one, I have one. Let me tell you what the real human experience is all about. The human experience is about getting out of our own boxes and jumping into other peoples’. We learn what we can from them, good or bad, and take it back to our own box. We then proceed to use the information we gain to build better boxes. THAT’S what the human experience is all about. You say that my beliefs constrain my understanding of the human experience? That’s like saying my dislike of papaya inhibits me from having a deep appreciation for fruit. You’re being too broad and vague. Everyone has beliefs of some sort. Everyone has hopes, fears, dreams, and opinions. That’s what makes us human. Would you say you guide your life only by science and reason? If so, then I would say it is you that are missing out on the human experience. For 1) Science is a helpful tool but corruptible just like any other human activity. and 2) Reason is just one of three things: Logos, Ethos, and Pathos. To live life by reason is a good thing, but it is all three that make us truly human. From what you were saying, it seems as though you’re implying that people of different faiths have little understanding of the human experience and the only ones who truly do so are people like you…kind of narrow-minded isn’t it? Lol Sounds just as narrow-minded as what Christian believe. ;)
I cannot believe this guy above me is not only using the anti gay, “If we let the queers marry, what next!?” arument…and follows with some “proofs” that evolution didnt happen…its like he’s shitting on all the people who have worked so hard for equality, and pissing on those who have spent lifetimes furthering our understanding of life…
Its like, you see someone with such great perspective, because he is sitting on the shoulders of giants…and you watch him drop trow and relieve himself…